photo f2fc6645-3553-483b-b64e-4c19058f6c05_zps121db233.jpg  photo jdberry_zpsea01d711.jpg  photo grizzlybroadheads_zps1m2s5rho.jpg  photo skyarchery_zps12d0c799.jpg  photo banner-kking-160-170_zps48e9d6a9.jpg<  photo truenortharrows_zpsi9ay4gwc.gif  photo northernmist20bcard1_zpssaxw3n46.jpg  photo b6133630-58d6-412c-b5b4-ab4f6eaf278b_zps87724bf7.png  photo iLongbow_Logo_for_TAS_zpsf129b7bf.jpg .  photo the20footed20shaft_zpsudbyv3ab.jpg  photo f5d37de7-de84-47ad-b248-e8adfe84c5db_zps4oisluth.gif  photo 02c77249-7155-4785-a743-8faf8c694e7a_zpseaj9xlnz.jpg  photo a71eb110-a010-46ae-a19b-7d36837870f7_zpsr4ihturv.jpg  photo B5D4E580-5A4C-4A25-AC73-D69CDBE82A69_zpsvvtli29v.jpg  photo Dave_shooting_bow_logo202_zpsuskt81vw.jpg  photo image_zps2rrhsrju.jpeg  photo sunsethill_zps551c0207.jpg  photo 7B537578-F7C7-4F86-98B8-9F94E0644C33_zpsqirpypxs.jpg  photo blackeaglefinal_zpsfqgqqrcj.png  photo lifeandlongbows_1330637004_140_zps0102271a.jpg  photo 91ec1aa8-d35d-411d-af44-9ac39a6c3357_zpsfr3ftu4e.jpg  photo f54b823c-306f-4e3e-afa1-e3b125416870_zpsxyneqvmc.jpg  photo db77abad-c90f-4ee5-9e34-905fe0c0fd36_zpsleoiybdo.png  photo 166bbfc0-8e0d-4346-a6eb-b36cd5726cc0_zpsq62o9dsu.jpg  photo bigjim_zps76882839.jpg  photo BB20C27A-28AF-49D1-A3EC-E667FB07818A_zpsmoqlhvin.jpg  photo McBroomCBC_Logo_www_zps562fd672.jpg  photo howardhill_large_zps5fd2fcc7.jpg  photo HolmMadeNewAd_09092014_zpsc4e4691d.jpg  photo IMG_5966_zpsgrbhwrgb.jpeg  photo Bearpaw_Products_Logo1_zps55d85f33.jpg  photo tradtech_zps697b00c1.jpg  photo a3c08d6f-f669-46b5-8b0c-1480a411cc78_zpsc853b3a6.gif  photo fairbow_zpsc278ec39.jpg  photo BFA1A26D-E368-4068-B3A0-47B0A65193D9_zpsi1hwuyn4.jpeg  photo F5A4B354-1040-4D43-939F-28ED48F7E5B7_zpsws5ptsc8.jpg  photo AFF3B4E3-F518-4092-A4E6-65AE830AB2BE_zpsnuwaaten.jpg  photo DF07A98B-41BB-4024-BCF7-A4FCB543D40E_zpsoiduf1m2.png  photo EEE5CA06-2368-4F2F-A920-0CA562579FE0_zpsm9lvvu1t.jpg  photo 35A0AFC6-0F9E-412C-A64B-EBE54AF0479D_zpsmipyof8e.jpg  photo coyote track 1_zpshipxn54s.png photo D49F4739-A11D-4F9D-9D50-4C3EE95E9555_zpswoqwk23o.jpg  photo BF4712C7-9EE6-460F-8380-4E7F08A65416_zpsmluzlgny.jpgwidth=  photo tas-banner-06062017_zpsoum7wuyu.gif  photo 510CA748-680D-4178-8B50-1A4C7F7F895D_zps6b5pjjoc.gif

Traditional Archers | Bowhunters
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
George

Avatar / Picture

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 65
Reply with quote  #1 
We would all agree that archers are constantly hearing about the correct spine of an arrow.  Spine charts abound so that archers can get the perfect match for their bow weight and shooting style.  It seems as though you can't pick up an archery magazine without encountering an article on how to choose the correct spine for those beautiful custom cedar arrows you've been salivating over.

However, I do have a question about how all of this spine business came about.  When did archers begin to incorporate the science of spine into the arrow making industry?  We know that there were archery companies back in the days of the Thompson brothers.  Did they fully understand the importance of the spine of an arrow?  And what about before that?  Did the English Longbowmen know about it?  In reading the work of Maurice Thompson, he relates his experience of using selected reeds as arrows.  He certainly didn't have a handy-dandy spine gauge in his backpack.  Even so, he was able to hit what he shot at a goodly percentage of the time.  In those Cowboy and Indian movies some of us watched as kids, they always got those soldier boys with one unerring shot which killed the poor guy in two seconds.[rolleyes] 

I would appreciate all opinions.  When did spine become so dang important?  

With Season Greetings,
George

 
 
0
Old Sailor

Avatar / Picture

Charter Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,299
Reply with quote  #2 
I don't know when people became aware of it or started calling it spine but having the correct spine in an arrow contributes greatly to the accuracy of the shot.  Now the English longbow men when sending a cloud of arrows towards the enemy over great distances probably were not concerned with pinpoint accuracy and probably not concerned with or even aware of spine.  Hunters that needed more accuracy probably noticed that some arrows flew better than others  and culled out the bad ones and thus sorted their arrows by spine even without realizing it.  I think I heard somewhere that Howard Hill use to shoot his arrows and pick out the best ones for hunting.  The accuracy of Howard and the Wilhelm Brothers could not have been achieved without shooting correctly spined arrows for their bows.  How they arrived at that I don't know, maybe by trial and error or maybe they had a handy dandy spine tester.
__________________
Charter Member Traditional Archery Society
Member Colorado Traditional Archery Society

JD Berry Morning Star 54#@28, Northern Mist Classic 54#@28Sovereign Ballistik 60#28, Howatt Hunter 55#@28, Ben Pearson Mustang 46#@28

"But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."  Romans 5:8

"Never pass up a great opportunity to shut up", Will Rogers

Durango, Colorado
Public Land Hunter
0
aromakr

Avatar / Picture

Honoree Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,657
Reply with quote  #3 
George:

Spine was really studied in the late 1920" by several noted Physicist/archers. The first articles appeared in early archery publications and then in a book titled "Archery the technical side" written by Klopstag and Nagler. The first studies were quite crude, but they learned from their mistakes and began to understand how an arrow reacted when it was shot.  That the distance of the strike plate from the center of the limb effected the arrows horizontal  impact on the target and by adjusting the stiffness of the arrow you can control where the arrow would print on the target horizontally.

Bob

__________________
Life Member PBS - Member TBM -Life Member Calif. Big game club - Sponsor Traditional Archery Society
0
CTDolan

Avatar / Picture

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 98
Reply with quote  #4 
"I think I heard somewhere that Howard Hill use to shoot his arrows and pick out the best ones for hunting."

My understanding is that Howard would shoot a batch of new arrows and group them by how/where they shot, in effect grouping by spine. If anyone can speak more thoroughly about this please do.
0
chuckc

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,713
Reply with quote  #5 
I think spine came into play when CO2 levels began to rise. Something like that.
__________________
ChuckC

Charter Member Traditional Archery Society

I did too !

Madison, Wisconsin.   Public land hunter
0
Sam

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,787
Reply with quote  #6 
Spine came into play when the first arrow was shot from the first bow. I think Old Sailor's observations are pretty accurate. People have always been aware that some arrows shot better than others. As archery science improved more attention was paid to arrow stiffness. Now, so much information and technology are available that the average archer can become an accomplished expert regarding spine.
__________________
Sam McMichael

Gray, GA

"The spirit of the bow dwells in the heart of all young men" - Geronimo

Hill Wesley Special (2, both 65#)
Hill Cheetah (2, one 55# and one 40#)
Hill Big 5 (50#)
NM Shelton (2, both 53#)
Deathwish Longbow (59#)
Archery Traditions Bamboo Longhunter (3, one 56#, one 60# and one 78#)

0
aromakr

Avatar / Picture

Honoree Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,657
Reply with quote  #7 
CT:

Howard did in fact shoot, I guess you would call it "for spine". He would group a batch of arrows. Those arrows that shot to the left of his point of aim were reserved for a heavier bow, those that grouped to the right were reserved for a lighter one, those that shot to the line were kept for the bow he was testing. It was a means of spine testing before spine testers were common.

Bob

__________________
Life Member PBS - Member TBM -Life Member Calif. Big game club - Sponsor Traditional Archery Society
0
MICH-Hill-Fan

Avatar / Picture

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 69
Reply with quote  #8 
Didn't Howard also use the tips of finger's for spinning arrows in the early days , ? Sure I read it someplace. Like if the Arrow jumped out of his fingers it was to weak ? Like seen in this photo? (Now I wanna try and look that up)  thumbnail (4).jpg 



thumbnail (3).jpg 

0
steelflight

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,497
Reply with quote  #9 
Even back amongst the English longbow men during the hundred years war there was a period were all sports were banned. You were to practice your archery until called to ranks. So as for when spine came into play scientifically I have no idea. But I do firmly believe with the statement above. It became apparent with the first shaft loosed
__________________
You may think before you act the question is do you listen to your own counsel.
0
steelflight

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,497
Reply with quote  #10 
Hardly needed but those charts are rarely any pinpoint of accuracy if your like me and wish to shoot a heavier shaft from the bow. In fact many archers have given me looks at the range for my 190 grain field tips.
__________________
You may think before you act the question is do you listen to your own counsel.
0
George

Avatar / Picture

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 65
Reply with quote  #11 
Well now, I've finally asked a question where one answer was just as good as the next.  I want to thank all of you for your expertise and input.  It is indeed a fascinating bit of archery history.  I really enjoyed aromakr's observation about the two men who studied the technical side of archery.  I would love to get my hands on the book they wrote.  Thank you all for coming through as you always do.

George
0
Draven

Avatar / Picture

Club Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,351
Reply with quote  #12 
In war archery spine was not something to lose your sleep over it. In war the arrows were given by the king/shogun/etc - number of arrows not accuracy was required and they were sent far away to harm not close to kill. If accuracy was required, technique was playing a major role - aligning the string with the arrow not the handle/limbs and moving the bow hand out of the way was the solution. There are some japanese bows with string offset from the centre of the handle, favouring the right side of the bow. Just shoot a heavy bow and the bow hand will go down off the arrow path. Horse archery is the same - bow hand out of the way of the arrow. I believe that spine became important when they started to shoot the bow as a pass time for high-class archers in 18th/19th century. Low poundage bows, formalized shooting moved the attention toward accuracy —-> arrow —-> spine.
Thank you Bob for info.

__________________
"Practice not until you get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong." - Unknown
0
mparker762

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 34
Reply with quote  #13 
>There are some japanese bows with string offset from the centre of the handle, favouring the right side of the bow
Didn't the Mary Rose horn tip only have one string nock on one side of the tip? This would have similarly shifted the string over to one side of the bow's centerline.

__________________
Buffalo Field Archery Club
0
Kelly

Charter Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,011
Reply with quote  #14 
Howard spining an arrow on his fingertips is checking for straightness, not for spine. He did as arrowmaker says by shooting the arrows.
__________________
Yours for better bowhunting, Kelly

http://www.arrowskp.com

>>>>============> Enjoy the flight of an arrow amongst Mother Nature's Glory! Once one opens the mind to the plausible, the unbelievable becomes possible! >>>>============>
Charter Member Traditional Archery Society
0
Hud

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 219
Reply with quote  #15 
The Assyrian Archers, used composite bows, and arrows of wood and reeds with steel points. They would carry up to 50 arrows in quivers and shoot a distance of 500 to 1500 ft. (500 yrds).  They were skill archers and their armies ruled the middle east (modern day Iraq) from 9th to 7th centuries B.C. Because they had the ability to produce composite bows, it seems logical  their arrows were made by skilled craftsmen. Being able to shoot 500 yards would take a heavy bow and stiffer arrows.                                                                              
0
timking

Avatar / Picture

TAS Upgrade Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,435
Reply with quote  #16 

When I started I was shooting wood, then fiberglass, in the 70s, I just bought the prepackaged arrows in your weight range, and gave it no further thought. I never owned more than 6 arrows at a given time, so it they weren’t broken, they got shot. Probably like many of you, buying that package of 3 arrows was a big expenditure, and competed head on with my Copenhagen addiction.

‘Until a very brief compound stint in the 80s, did I truly realize what spine was about. But still, the local pro shops just cut the arrows 1” long, put in 125 field points, and you went with it.(aluminum)
 
A couple of years later, picking back up the recurve, I started buying better wood arrows somewhat matched to my bow. My spine tester unfortunately was still the ‘that one doesn’t shoot right’ and set it aside. For me, until Carbon came along I really did no take the time to explore spine, because I always thought poor arrow flight was just part of shooting off of the shelf. In fact, the only ‘trad’ guys that I had around me all had the same crappy arrow flight, so how would you know any different? I hate to think about all of the bad shots I made on game in the 90s due to what I thought was ‘good enough’ in several departments...🙁


__________________
Charter Member Traditional Archery Society
Dallas, Texas
this season I am shooting...

62" #58 Black Widow MA
62" #58 Bob Lee Ultimate
62” Bears Paw #55 Classic


Widowmaker 350 Carbon shafts,
200 gr VPA 3 blade,
200 gr. Iron Will 4 blade, 





0
aromakr

Avatar / Picture

Honoree Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,657
Reply with quote  #17 
Cody:

What Howard is doing in that photo is checking the arrow for straightness not spine.

Bob

__________________
Life Member PBS - Member TBM -Life Member Calif. Big game club - Sponsor Traditional Archery Society
0
Ugly Old Guy

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #18 
The day "archery" was invented or discovered is my guess.
I don't think the term "spine" became a "thing" until the advent of carbon fiber arrows.
Back when your choice was wood or aluninum arrows there were charts telling what aluminum arrows were "stiff enough" for various dtaw weights and draw lengths.
They didn't call it "spine" though.

As for wood arrows, I'm sure fletchers knew from experiance which wood(s) and diameter worked best with various draw weights, be it a "sporting bow", "war bow". or a crossbow/arbalist that required a windlass to draw/cock.
0
Jack Skinner

Avatar / Picture

TAS Upgrade Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,319
Reply with quote  #19 
Pre 1926 at least
From a chapter in Fred's book Toxicated
Stanley Spencer, the 1926 US Target Archery Champion; " Why, oh why, do they fill up so much space writing about spine of arrows and just how to bend them around the bow, instead of making a rigid arrow and learning how to shoot it?"

__________________
Jack Skinner

Self Bows, OE's; Heritage, Vixen, Misty Dawn, Heritage II x 2 "The Twins", 7 Lakes SF Carolina Night, Miller Sage, Ramer, Schulz Grandpa, Sunset Hill, Shelton

Cheyenne WY
0
aromakr

Avatar / Picture

Honoree Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,657
Reply with quote  #20 
Ugly Old guy:

I'm sorry, but you need to do some more research !!!!

Bob

__________________
Life Member PBS - Member TBM -Life Member Calif. Big game club - Sponsor Traditional Archery Society
0
Hud

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 219
Reply with quote  #21 
Stanley Spencer, obviously had the right spine from the start, and didn't take to fiddling with arrows, or he would not have won in 1926. [crazy]
0
aromakr

Avatar / Picture

Honoree Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,657
Reply with quote  #22 
Hud:

Target archers of that era used to number each arrow and would (clock) them. They would shoot each arrow and record where each arrow would hit at every distance. So they knew if that arrow needed to be aimed left or right (weak or stiff) of the target and how much. It was a very long and time consuming process. And they didn't aim at the target, they actually aimed at a mark that the placed on the ground in front of it.

Bob 

__________________
Life Member PBS - Member TBM -Life Member Calif. Big game club - Sponsor Traditional Archery Society
0
johnnail

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 397
Reply with quote  #23 
Early english spine testers were a pan and hook hung on the center of the shaft and weighted with coins... The shaft might then be called "twenty pence" ect
0
Winter Hawk

Avatar / Picture

Associate Member
Registered:
Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #24 
A while back I bought a box of test arrows from 3 Rivers, two each spined in 5 lb. increments, from 45 to 60 pounds, IIRC.  I have been using them for practice arrows and find NO difference between them.  I shoot them mixed in my quiver, which ever I pull out is the one I shoot and they all seem to group together. Or spread wide apart, depending on how I'm shooting.... [eek][rolleyes][smile]

The white fletched arrows may be on opposite sides of the group, as will any of the other colors; each color signifies a different spine weight.

~WH~
0
aromakr

Avatar / Picture

Honoree Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,657
Reply with quote  #25 
Winter Hawk:

The reason for that is your probably shooting a bow that is center cut or past center, they will shoot a wider range of spines than a bow cut less than center.

Bob

__________________
Life Member PBS - Member TBM -Life Member Calif. Big game club - Sponsor Traditional Archery Society
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

2015 Traditional Archery Society Honorees Mr. John Schulz, Mr. Jerry Hill, Mr. Jacques Bonin. http://t.co/uqtwL2f30j pic.twitter.com/nZySLMRXwP

— traditional archery (@TASFORUM) February 24, 2015