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ChiefStingingArrow

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Reply with quote  #1 
Howard Hill scholars, what are your thoughts on this take of Hill's shooting?

%2Cwn

I did notice in His book Hunting the Hard way that his drawing of secondary aiming at a deer target did have his aiming point low and to the right. However, I was under the assumption that he slightly shot right because he was left I dominant.

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Yehwa

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Reply with quote  #2 
Gary’s a great shot with the English longbow . Very good tips. Check him out on u tube .
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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #3 
That video is total BS.

Sorry, but you don't have to aim to the right of the intended arrow impact, regardless of the bow type. No shelf or a shelf cut past center, when you have the proper spine arrow for that bow.

Take into account when Howard wrote "Hunting the Hardway" very little was know about how the depth of shelf effected the arrows left and right impacts. An arrow can flight quite nicely even when over or under spine, however to hit the intended point of impact when pointing the arrow directly at said point the spine needs to be correct.
 When you look at spine charts of the 40's-70's all you would see is bow weight and draw length, no mention of shelf depth. Nobody figured that out until the compound with arrow rests that could be adjusted for depth came about. Then low and behold it was found that lateral impact could be adjusted by moving the rest. Then it was discovered that by reducing arrow spine the impact would move right for a right hand shooter or increasing spine would move the impact to the left.

Bob

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Yehwa

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Reply with quote  #4 
Burger buttons. Were around before compound bows
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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #5 
Yehwa:

Actually they were both developed about the same time. And I had forgotten about Vic Berger

Bob

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JR Belk

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Reply with quote  #6 
I completely agree with Aromakr. Even a no shelf bow will hit straight down the pipe with the properly tuned arrow. I mean tuned, not tuned weak.
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Shootalot

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Reply with quote  #7 
Probably became I do a lot of things wrong but the arrow tip has always been to the right of the target for me as mentioned in the video. Varies some with which glove I'm using and how deep the shelf is cut into the bow. but doesn't seem to change much with the spine of the arrow. To get the arrow in line under the target I have to cant the bow so much I'm uncomfortable shooting it.
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Gordon Jabben
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mparker762

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Reply with quote  #8 
The arrow tip is well right of the target for me as well. Spine affects how far right, but poa is always right of poi.
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James Donahue

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Reply with quote  #9 
I have no idea where the arrow point is

totally oblivious  to it

they just sometimes go where I'm looking 

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ChiefStingingArrow

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Reply with quote  #10 
Appreciate each of your insight! 
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ManuForti

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Donahue
I have no idea where the arrow point is

totally oblivious  to it

they just sometimes go where I'm looking 

x2, emphasis on the “sometimes.” 😆
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Hud

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Reply with quote  #12 
I believe, what Howard wrote is true for a right-hand archer, that is left eye dominate, or the left-hand archer, that is right eye dominate. It is not true if you are right, and right eye dominate, or left with left eye dominate. He stresses the importance of focusing on the intended target and not letting your eye move from the target to the arrow and back. His secondary aiming spot was possible,  because his left eye dominate, and he practiced.  It takes lots of practice to be able to aim this way, but only works if the dominate eye is NOT over the arrow.  I think Howard started shooting right handed, because he was told hold the bow in your left hand, etc., at an early age.  IMO it might be more useful on 3D targets than actual game, because the latter tends to move around. I tried his method by shooting left-handed, and after awhile was convinced, his method was possible, but not if the dominate eye is over the arrow. Obviously, Howard developed a method that will only work for some, willing to put in the time.  The secret if there is one is to start at age 5 as he did.
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Steve Graf

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Reply with quote  #13 
I think the cat has it figured out about right [smile]

Also, just about anything you do wrong when shooting has the effect of pushing the arrow to the left (for a right handed shooter) in my experience.  I have to agree with Bob, it ain't hard to make the arrow go straight.

No offense to Gary, but he has some form issues (like me and everybody else) with his bow arm that could be making his arrow go left.  If you watch his video's, he throws his arm to the right after every shot.
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Shootalot

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Reply with quote  #14 
This is an interesting topic for me.  I shoot with a small group of archers all spring and summer.  One of the guys I shoot with has been shooting traditional bows for over 30 years like I have and like me won quite a few trophies and buckles although I think we are just slightly above average shooters. We both shoot wood arrows for the most part.  For him, the spine of the arrow is very critical and he bare shaft tunes his arrows and without a doubt, he can tell the slightest difference in spine.  Like me, he does see the arrow in his peripheral vision but unlike me, the arrow is right under the spot he is trying to hit.  
In my peripheral vision, I see the arrow and I have to hold to the right of the spot I am trying to hit just like in the video.  The glove I shoot with and the amount the shelf is cut into the bow will determine how far to the right I have to hold.  Spine is of little concern to me and I can easily shoot a twenty pound spine difference in a group of arrows and not notice it. The arrow is to the right even if I close my left eye so eye dominance is not a factor.  
The main difference I see is in our anchors.  My friend just touches the corner of his mouth and I anchor far back on my face even further than Howard Hill did when he put his middle fingertip on a back tooth or lack of it.  I think in Hunting the Hard Way, he purposely put his aiming spot to the right of the spot he wanted to hit in the deer illustration because that's what he saw in his peripheral vision. 
Does anyone have any suggestions as to why the spine of the arrow is critical to some and not to others.  I know some will think that I'm just not a good enough shot to tell the difference but Jim Ploen mentions in his writings that spine should make little difference and no one can say he's not an exceptional shot.    

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Gordon Jabben
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Welder113

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Reply with quote  #15 
I’m so confused lol
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timking

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Reply with quote  #16 
Gordon, in your question, do you mean if they are shooting the same bow? Only reason I could say is that it is form related...(I know, nothing groundbreaking with my conclusion!)

I finally watched the video, and I’m wondering what there is to disagree with...I have always had to aim at 4 o’clock, sometimes an exaggerated or extreme 4 o’clock depending on the set up. I guess I’m strange ...

I have now changed things to get my eye right over the arrow, and it sure makes it easier on my tired brain.
Great video and topic

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this season I am shooting...

62" #60 Black Widow MA
62" #60 Bob Lee Ultimate

Widowmaker 350 Carbon shafts,
250gr. VPA 3 blade,
225 gr. Iron Will 4 blade, 





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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #17 
My experience is similar. Although I get pretty sticky about bare shaft tuning of carbon ( not wood anymore, though I still shoot woods) I have days where no matter what I shoot, when I miss it is to the right ( lefty ). When I make a bad release I can see the arrow drift right, but even on perfect releases, to the right side is the game.

Pretty certain sight picture alignment, for me, is the culprit. Even though it appears straight, since I cant the bow I cannot align the string with the arrow.

I have been trying to change and correct that. Might be...the change I need to make is to listen to the above.

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ChuckC

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I did too !

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Shootalot

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Reply with quote  #18 
Lol, I guess that my post was pretty confusing but I doubt that I can clean it up but I will try. Do you think that the spine of an arrow is more or less critical for some shooters because of where they anchor on their face or how they grip the bow? Also do you think for some the arrow point is to the right of the spot they are trying to hit because they anchor further on th side of the face?
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Gordon Jabben
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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #19 
As a result of my statement above... I just went and shot...then on rounds 2,3,4...I closed my (today dominant) right eye while drawing (remember...lefty)...and put them in the middle. So....add another point to your question there Gordon.
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ChuckC

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I did too !

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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #20 
Form is one thing, correct spine is another.

When an arrow is correctly spined for a certain bow, arrow length & drawn to a certain length. It should hit a vertical line that its aimed at, when the arrow is directly under the shooters eye and the arrow point is on the line, regardless if the bow is canted or not. If Impact is left of point of aim the arrow is stiff, right of that mark its weak for a right handed shooter. You correct that in several ways. 1. increase or decrease arrow length. 2. increase or decrease point weight. 3. increase or decrease shafts spine. 4. increase or decrease bows shelf depth. Its all part of the tuning process. As you gain experience you can pretty well determine what spine shaft you will need without a lot of experimentation.
When I was making arrows commercially, I made those calculations every day. My policy was, If the buyer allowed me to make calculation, and it was wrong I would re-make his order until it was correct at no charge. In 25+ years I NEVER had to remake an order for that reason.

The problem when having to aim right of the intended mark is, that gap changes as the distance increases or decreases, so the shooter has to make two mental calculations when shooting i.e. elevation & windage, when all you should have to do is calculate elevation, unless there is wind to factor in. Why make shooting more difficult than it already is.

Bob

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Shootalot

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Reply with quote  #21 
Chuckc, that's the same for me. The arrow tip for me is to the right of the target but closing my left eye (righty) makes no difference.
Aromakr, I can't for the life of me get my arrows with a spine difference to move left or right. I'm talking 20 pounds or so difference and shooting them together in a group. I am positive most people have them move left or right. Yes, having the arrow directly under the target would be an advantage but for me to get my arrow point there, I have to cant the bow so much it's uncomfortable to shoot and looks pretty weird. Lol
I probably wouldn't think about this stuff but I'm retired and have lots of time. :)

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Gordon Jabben
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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #22 
Shootalot:

  Anchoring far back on your face will certainly effect your hold. My anchor is the corner of the mouth that put the arrow dead on line with my intended vertical line, I too can shoot a wide range of spines and the closer the strikeplate is to center the wider that range will be.

Bob

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James Donahue

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Reply with quote  #23 
I also can easily shoot a wide spine group with no noted difference in impact

I don't see the point at all when shooting
 really have to look for it to see it
 

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Draven

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Reply with quote  #24 
When line of sight is somewhat parallel with the line of arrow (the way the english longbow archers or HH and ASL archers in general are shooting) the arrow tip is "down - right" if you use the tip as aiming reference. I think Gary is right, but he doesn't make it clear why the arrow is in that position, opening the door for "poor arrow tuning or bad form" comments. The more the arrow is closer to or under the line of sight, the more the arrow tip will be under (or above) the point the archer wants to hit. The  "string blur" position is used to correct this exact situation (subtle difference between line of sight and perceived arrow path at full draw): arrow tip under or on the spot and ... arrow goes left (or right). 


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tsgro

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud
I believe, what Howard wrote is true for a right-hand archer, that is left eye dominate, or the left-hand archer, that is right eye dominate. It is not true if you are right, and right eye dominate, or left with left eye dominate. He stresses the importance of focusing on the intended target and not letting your eye move from the target to the arrow and back. His secondary aiming spot was possible,  because his left eye dominate, and he practiced...


As I am still trying to discover what works for me, I have slowly been coming to the same conclusion.

I find my dominant eye doing most of the work. I would venture to say that with both eyes open, focusing on where you want to hit, my dominant eye is both the direct and indirect sighting method with the aid of my nondominant eye.



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