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tamisium

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Reply with quote  #1 
Dreams do come true. First trained with Rickson Gracie for years and personally got to know him becoming good friends.
Would have loved to train with Howard Hill himself but I was only 6 when he passed. Although I was versed in Howard Hill Lore my whole life I could only dream.
Then I got an opportunity that I again dreamed of. I got to train with John Schulz. Wow!
Not just one day with a group of others but I got two full days all alone with the old man himself.
Funny that John addressed Howard as the old man. Well brother you are now that man that we address as the old man.
First I would like to thank Laurie and Rick McNeil for hosting and organizing the meeting/lesson at their beautiful home by the South Fork Shoshone River in Cody Wyoming.

I relayed some of this to Tim in an email. I copied and pasted that below and will add more later.


 

I never pop my arm badly but did when I was shooting with him for some reason.
Maybe a new looser arm guard I had on but it hit bad and that is when he checked my draw
and told me to correct it.
I feel pretty good with a 27 but he was shooting for me to have a 26.5 from my original 28".
When I crooked my arm things improved a lot.
I also took a look down his drawing arm and noticed it was dead on with the
line to the target. I told him that and he said he learned something and never knew
he did that. You cant get that line if you don’t bend  your arm and if you bend it
you will have a shorter draw.
I guess he has been telling us to do that all along.
I would like to add that I had this theory about why Howard Shot such a short arrow
for his height.
I always assumed he had very heavy bows that required very heavy spined or large
diameter shafts.
The diameter of a shaft that would stand up to his bow weights would push the center
of the shaft a ways off bow center which I am sure would be difficult to shoot with the
added paradox.
Mayby, maybe not.
Shooting a shorter arrow would solve that problem to some degree by strengthening
the arrow by decreasing the shaft diameter.
Bending his arm may be a necessary evil I always thought but on the other hand
it may be putting the arm in line with the target which may help.
And that may help with draw length consistency.
Now all this make me think John would say, "you know what?"
David, you over analyze too much. [redface])
But the point is made and maybe we can learn something from it and maybe not.

I had such a great time, super time.


Email sent to Tim King.

Hello Tim
I just got back from Wyoming after spending 2 full days alone
with John Schulz. After about 15 hours or so of talking shooting
and making minor corrections to my form he convinced me that if I hold
my form correctly I am not a 28" draw. I am an inch or so under that.

By the way, I was a bit shocked when I showed up to Laurie's house to
find John at the door waiting for me so we could get started one on one.
I may add that he was sprite and chipper and all smiles.
I had no idea it was a private lesson I paid for and I bought
two days in a row and was sure glad I did. I would have bought a whole week
if I would have known that.
I got every bit of everything I ever wanted from that man in an exclusive
setting. Could not have been happier.
He seemed 20 years younger than any 84 yr old man I know.
He was climbing hills and tossing aerial targets and the whole bit.
It was a real memory to be cherished.
We camped outside for lunch, talked bow and archery craft and he spilled
the beans on all kinds of characters and episodes. He even told a few
good jokes. I think he wanted me to feel what it was like to be out
in the woods with the old man, as he had done, and brother he sure did.
I can say that I shot with him, camped out with him, ate his food, and took
lessons while hearing great stories all the while focusing on shooting correctly.
I got insight into the inner workings of archery, development, characters that
shaped the sport, building bows, shooting bows, and John Schulz.

When I first started the drive to Wyoming I did not have the address, time
or any details. It was sort of a task to figure the whole thing out in
regards to what time to show up or when it ends. Should I bring something
to eat and do I even need to bring a bow.
So I went fully armed with a boiled egg, knife, Schulz bows, arrows and hill style
quiver arm guard and hill glove.
He laughed when he saw the egg and said he has lunch all planned out.
He had the whole thing all planned out.
Could not be happier.
His daughter Laurie and her husband were gracious and accommodating host.

Just thought I would share that with you Tim.


So here is the first part that I wanted to share with TAS members.

When I first saw John at the door I stated you are getting around pretty well.
He said "why sure I am, laughing, what did you expect. You want to run a 40?"

The day was all laid out and planned well. Very well and professionally done while
still rustic and original.
First we started evaluating equipment and talking about bows and arrows and getting
to know each other a bit.
We talked a good while about bows rounding that off with a few supporting stories
about the bows and how they came to be and the people that build them.
Then we moved over to form and shooting close at bales of hay. 10 steps.
Some of the things we covered were pretty basic and standard but drawing and grip
seemed to be the focus. I had some erratic drawing habits or should I say
inconsistency. An occasional poor release was corrected but my major weak
area was drawing consistently exactly the same way every time while keeping
a grip on the bow. Just not consistent with everything all the time.
To be precise the point at which we begin to draw when the bow arm is already
finished rising was sometimes short or long and he wanted that to be the same
and all timed at the same speed until the shot hit.
I had to work on keeping a consistent grip on my bow during release.
I have a bad habit of relaxing my little finger and ring finger after shooting.
I should anchor the handle more on the heel or bottom of my hand or more evenly.
The other thing was the bow arm was not dropping to begin the swing.
This all seems like a lot and it was but these differences were sometimes
subtle and may go unnoticed by the untrained eye. So having John there
to point them out was paramount. By the end I was able to discern wrong from
right myself. And that was the goal.
When I watch John and Howard do it the right way, it appears that the
spread of the bow hand and drawing hand would be similar to tearing a piece
of large news sheet apart and at the point you become parallel with the line
to the target your drawing hand still has about 6 inches to come back to full draw.
I think John would say that as the bow hand rises it would have a slight arc rather
than just coming straight up. I will have to watch the videos to get a clear answer
to that.
It will take some time to change those to consistent repetition but there
was a great deal of improvement by the end.
I would say I would make some great shots when I first got there but was not
a great shot all the time.
After I left I was making even greater shots and was more of a good
shot most of the time.
I could even hit the 100 yard 4" wide board on the 2nd day and was hitting 3 in
a row at the 12" aerials anyway. I was hitting the running dear almost every time
and ended up in the kill zone at the end.

After form we moved to varying distance focusing on windage shots and elevation shots
up to 100 yards and then at varying angles to the target, up down, through limbs around
or to the left or right.
Then to moving ground targets and aerial targets and running targets with follow through.
That was the end of the first day.
The 2nd day this was started backwards due to having to cease aerial work the previous day
due to high winds. So we started with Aerial the next day. Working our way backwards
we ended with form. John called the form the final exam of which he gave me high marks
for. We also worked on intricate target shots. Shooting a small stick in two while in the
vertical and horizontal plane. We could not move to the next phase until we accomplished
the current one. Such as hit three in a row and so forth.
We also talked about canting the bow and shot with different cants at varying distances.

I had lost a couple arrows so much so that we never found them. John approached me
with his personal arrow and as he handed it to me he said it was not a total loss.
I took that arrow and the certificate placing both of them in a display case that will
be cherished as one of the greatest memories I have.
I may add that a photo of John and I are in that display box and would not be there if it
were not for the keen insight of Rick to take photos. I did not even know Rick was there
in the background taking these photos but I cant thank him enough because I did not take
a single one until I saw my phone as I was driving off. I snapped a lasting shot of the
old man in the driveway.

Happy Shooting
David McGhee


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Reply with quote  #2 
That's Awesome!!!  Something to be cherished for life.

I lived in Sheridan for a time and drove over to Cody, met the Old Man and son Tom built a bow for me.

That's was a number of years ago.

What a big time you must of had tamisium.

Wap

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tradlongbow

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Reply with quote  #3 
I'm glad to hear your dream came true! I know that I'll never forget spending those 3 days with John.
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TRADITIONAL BOWHUNTER WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 
MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND 
May 22, 23, 24, 2020
Farmland Conservation Club, Winchester, Indiana 




PUBLIC LAND HUNTER

John Schulz Straight Shooting and Bowhunting Graduate

Email: traditionalarcherysociety@yahoo.com
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tamisium

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Reply with quote  #4 
I hope in another 5 years I can look back and compare my progress and see vast distances from where I am now.
I am sure you guys have had some progress.
It is funny how we will do things for decades and never get a professional to guide us. I dont do that anymore but have done that with some of my interest.
Wish I would have gone sooner.

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Reply with quote  #5 
I told David that I just hoped he didn't make the dumb mistake I made and break out a bow stringer to string up his ASL. I'll always have that regret!
To think I spent valuable time learning how to string a bow by the master....

What a great experience David, thanks for sharing!



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this season I am shooting...

62" #60 Black Widow MA
62" #60 Bob Lee Ultimate

Widowmaker 350 Carbon shafts,
250gr. VPA 3 blade,
225 gr. Iron Will 4 blade, 





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Reply with quote  #6 
Man, what a time that would be!

Hopefully he is able to do this a few more years.

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"Indeed as grown men we can be almost childlike in our wonder at the whoosh of the arrow as it speeds away, the eons of history behind us no doubt gently laugh along with us at such small joys. . . seemingly so insignificant amidst the daily grind, the over commercialism of the outdoors Industry, but so alluring to the most romantic of ourdoorsman, champions of fair chase and bastions of adventure—the longbowmen! " -Ben Maher

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Reply with quote  #7 
Awesome!
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Reply with quote  #8 
That is one of the greatest adventures I've read about here on TAS.  Very glad you got the opportunity and that it turned out so well.  Thanks for taking the time to do such a great write up, and for sharing the experience in words and pictures.   Please keep us up to date on your progess!
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tamisium

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Reply with quote  #9 
I owe a debt of gratitude to you all here. Justin Tim and all the others. Thanks for the compliment on my brief and quick write up Green. I may add more later. Tim King, Scott T, John I. and Justin fortify my addiction to some degree and share the same affliction. What an affliction.
I obtained a few bows from others as well.

As I told Tim, I need to write all this down before I forget it all. So this helps me a lot. I may choose this forum to do that. There are details to the relative brief explanations I included here. I may expand on them a little. If anyone ask questions I will answer but again as I told Tim I hope not to offend John by elaborating too much so bare with a hint of mystery remembering it is out of respect in hopes that John shares more with all of us. I hope he does do this again and I want all of us to have a reason to see him when he does. In addition the lessons were very particular to the individual.
I think he shared a few stories with me and others that he may not want to share with the public. Not just about archery but about making bows and about the people in archery today and the past.

In summary when I referenced him for an example he referred me to the video of which I hope remains available for purchase. I have a feeling when I watch it again those little words of wisdom and example that slipped by when I watched it first may not be so elusive anymore. "Hitting em like Howard Hill is the video of course.
We even talked about Lars Anderson. John and I both agree that their is a romance and beauty and even nostalgia when it comes to shooting a longbow like Howard did. That means to me, just like fly fishing their will be a bamboo rod and new composite rods but one thing for sure. There will always be those that love that bamboo rod and what they can do with it.
I use to have a Japanese Judo Coach that told me not to open a variety store. Specialize. Dont try and master every throw. Pick one and master it.
Well, we all know how special you can get with one type bow and way of shooting. One in particular.
I favor that one as well.

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Reply with quote  #10 
What a fantastic adventure! One to cherish for a lifetime. Thanks for sharing this adventure with us.
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Sam McMichael

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Hill Wesley Special (2, both 65#)
Hill Cheetah (2, one 55# and one 40#)
Hill Big 5 (50#)
NM Shelton (2, both 53#)
Deathwish Longbow (59#)
Archery Traditions Bamboo Longhunter (3, one 56#, one 60# and one 78#)

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Reply with quote  #11 
David, I think your willingness to document your progress as well as expand a bit on what you've learned, with those of us here on TAS, is a great thing.  The Hill and Schulz legacies are kept alive by yourself, those in last years clinic, and other of John's students sharing what you've learned, how it has helped your shooting, what worked, what maybe didn't work, etc.  Many, many pages have been written on the internet over the last 20 years, but much of that was hearsay, conjecture, or interpretation of photos and of Howard and John's written words.  The value of receiving the word and instruction right from the horses mouth carries the most weight.  Again....thanks for sharing what you learned, and what you've yet to perfect.  
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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green
That is one of the greatest adventures I've read about here on TAS.  Very glad you got the opportunity and that it turned out so well.  Thanks for taking the time to do such a great write up, and for sharing the experience in words and pictures.   Please keep us up to date on your progess!


This X 2

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Purveyor of fine outdoor cutlery and semi professional Longbow toting Roving rogue & lifelong arch enemy of the Nottingham Sheriff .....  
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Reply with quote  #13 
What a special couple of days!
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Reply with quote  #14 
Just incredible!!! Thanks for taking the time to post it all. We thank you!
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Reply with quote  #15 
Great write up David. Did you feel like you had know John for years? He has such a way of making you feel comfortable, I felt like I had know him for a very long time. I was really suprised how one the ball he was, sharp as a tack. I mentioned to him that my friend had taken John's bow making class in 1988, and he knew who I was talking about straight away. He even remembered what my friend named his bow that he made a the school!
Forget all the archery stuff, I thought his camp fire coffee and his Dutch oven lunch were well worth the price of admission!
I do hope others get the opportunity to visit and learn from John directly.
If people want to learn from the one who knows, I'd recommend they try to book a slot for next year now. There is no guarantee that John will do any more lessons, but maybe he just might for a member of Traditional Archery Society ;-)

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68" 65@28 John Schulz American Longbow - "Tidy"
68" 60@28 John Schulz American Longbow Trophy Hunter
68" 59@28 John Schulz American Longbow - "The Favourite"
66" 55@27.5 John Schulz American Longbow - "The Short String"
66' 60@27.5 John Schulz American Longbow " The Cheetah"
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tamisium

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Reply with quote  #16 
Yes John made me feel very comfortable right from the start and yes we had a few in depth conversations that demonstrated a deep intellect and great memory.
The down home comfort level was so great that I decided if for some reason he was just too tired to carry on the next day I would be perfectly willing to forfeit the payment with no hard feelings. But I was pleasantly surprised when he was there ready and willing the next day. After all he was 84 years old. I certainly would not require a full day after what we did the first day. But he was there, ready to go with the single comment, " I feel like 84 today" and with that we carried on with equal grace and discipline.
IE he was not stopping till I got it right. Hopefully I was as good a student as he was an instructor to me.

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Reply with quote  #17 
David thanks for sharing your story with us and looking forward to future writing on this subject. A few years ago I bought a John Schulz signed hunting arrow from Laurie and I also have a signed copy of John's Book Straight Shooting, its a great reference. John is the man and a true gentleman.
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Reply with quote  #18 
Thanks for sharing your story and photos David.  A once in a lifetime adventure.  Well done!![thumb][thumb]
Deno

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Howard Hill Wesley Special 70#
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Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks Deno
I like your signature.

Don't look for boogers...shoot the Hill out of it"...Howard Hill

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Reply with quote  #20 
Tamisium.....was hoping you'd update this thread on your progress.  How are things progressing?
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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green
Tamisium.....was hoping you'd update this thread on your progress.  How are things progressing?


If your referring to my learning I have learned something new in my shooting.
I was talking to Tom Schulz via email and he commented on my form in the photos I shared. He said it was well balanced.
That reminded me of something that I shared with him. Something I noted for years while watching John, Howard and even Tom as a young boy in the video.
I will just copy and paste what I shared with Tom here rather than type it all over again.
I will add a few comments to for the purpose of expanding the content. I was typing this on my phone and now on keyboard.

Thanks for the comment about the form.

I noticed all you guys and howard do something during drawing. I dont know why but I found myself doing it without thinking about it for the first time ever this weekend.

You guys bring your arrow shaft path higher than target flight path during drawing, bringing the arrow in view more or closer to target on the rise and then down into line with target on the straight back to anchor portion of drawing.
Better said,, your point comes up faster to target than the back of the arrow aiming the arrow higher above target and leveling out the path as the drawing hand comes up.
When i started doing that i started nailing them. It was not a conscious decision.
I was not focusing on the arrow but the arrow and arrow tip seemed to be more pronounced to pull the tip and shaft out of my peripheral away from the target rather than when pulling it in.
Makes perfect sense.
Like dropping the arrow into the flight path rather than rising into it.
I did not realize i was doing it until it dawned on me that i could see the flight path before releasing MUCH more clearly. If I missed when doing that I actually knew my release was bad or aim was incorrect. I had something to compare the next shot to when correcting it. It was a game changer for me. Sort of like being able to call your shot with a gun.
John says to do that in his video i think but doent say why.
I think he says the bow hand rises slightly faster than the drawing hand?
For a long time I tried to initialize that consciously and never could. Guess cause I did not know why I was doing it and had no reason to focus on and therefore no result to acknowledge. I got the reason first this time and it came together for me.

This made me think of something else. John told me that Howard would release very quickly not holding more than 7/8 of a second. When I draw I sort of feel like I am pouring my arrow tip down a funnel to the bullseye when I draw like John does. This is different than when you pull and hold and try to find the bulls eye with your secondary vision. You start shaking and release poorly usually. I guess it could be developed like anything but I agree with John. Your arrow should be coming to target and be on target when at draw and ready to release. This whole movement is dynamic and it is easier to make corrections in movement rather than when not in motion which would require you to start and stop again. That is way to hard to do when holding 70 lbs. Heavy bows just wont allow it.
Your aim starts at the beginning of the draw. I think you make this final fine adjustment when you are drawing straight back.

If I could give an analogy. I would bet if you could get a laser in Howards Arrow you would see the laser point at the ground, rise to above the target crossing the target and coming back down to target as his drawing hand is coming to anchor. In your view the arrow tip would not rise above the target at any time but it may get real close and then come down.
This all sounds like a lot of over thinking but if our mind is using the arrow to aim I think it is important to know where it is pointing and how our brain is seeing it for repetition.

Now I know if John reads this he would say. David, you over analyze too much. ;o)
Asking a guy to not do that when his brain is wired that way is like asking somebody not to breathe.
And I bet John does that too but rather than voice it out loud he just gets a sly grin on his face.


I think I am going to come up with a new signature for this forum.

" I like to have the edge on more things than just my broadheads "


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Reply with quote  #22 
I know in my own shooting, that the bow arm rising slightly higher and coming back down during the last few inches of draw is most likely from the momentum of the upward swing.  It becomes more pronounced at distance as I'm used to shooting from 25 yards and in, and it takes a couple of shots to adjust.
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tamisium

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Reply with quote  #23 
I found that as that happens the tip of the arrow is almost right on the target. As I raise my rear drawing hand the back of the shaft rises and lowers the tip.
What happens for me is that I find it easier to estimate the correct point of aim placement of the tip of the arrow when I am lowering it versus when I am rising into it.
To be clear, I am not ever looking at the tip. The tip is in my peripheral vision. I can just see it more clearly when it is closer to the point I am focusing on. As I pull it away out of clarity I think it just stays more clear than when I am pulling it in.
Now this momentum factor may be true but keep in mind it is the same slow or fast draw when howard does it.
I am sort of blessed in the fact that I have 24 of Howards Videos that I can watch for comparison. As I said I have noticed he does this on every shot except his aerial shots. But every shot I have seen him take he does this rise and drop. So does John.
If you have his video, hitting them like howard hill, check it out.
On the other hand one of the Wilhelm brothers shot from the waste and could shoot a cuff link off each others head. I think that is the correct spelling for their name.

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Reply with quote  #24 
David, thank you for all the information, I can't fly so I will never make it to John's place for a lesson, but thank you for describing some of what you learned, maybe I can try some of it out and pick up on it.

I would have done the same, I would have showcased that arrow and maybe you could write up the whole time you spent with him and include that in your display case for future reading.

You are very fortunate and I envy you, glad you got to go and experience the lessons from one of the great archers...............Ron

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tamisium

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Reply with quote  #25 
Thanks
it was more than a lesson. It was an experience and insight into what John lived and now shares with us all. I felt like howard may walk around the tree any minute.
I had a great time and learned a lot too. John makes you forget who he is for the time and he places focus on you.

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